Still Becoming One
We longed for a marriage where two people truly connect as “one flesh,” but we had no roadmap. After years of missteps, hard seasons, and questions about when real closeness would begin, we discovered that building a thriving marriage takes time, intention, and guidance. Now, more than 26 years later, our marriage is stronger than ever. Brad is a licensed counselor, and Kate is a relationship coach, and together we help couples and individuals explore what it means to build a deep connection, uncovering the stories and patterns that keep them stuck. Join us as we continue the journey of growth, healing, and intimacy. We are still becoming one, and we want to walk this path with you.
Still Becoming One
He Wants to Be Seen, But He's Scared You'll Look: Healing Men's Stories with Wendell Moss
In this powerful episode, we dive deep into the complex inner world of men with therapist and teacher Wendell Moss from the Allender Center. Discover the three core, unspoken questions every man is asking:
- "Does anyone see me?"
- "Does anyone respect me?"
- "Will anyone want me?"
And how the cultural pressure to "be strong" often leads to silence, loneliness, and cycles of addiction fueled by shame and contempt. We explore why so many men struggle with vulnerability, deflect compliments, and fear being seen, even when they desperately desire it. For couples seeking true connection, this conversation offers profound insights into the male experience, unpacking how the fear of powerlessness drives behavior and how to create the safety needed for healing. Learn practical steps to build new, healing counter-narratives in your marriage, repair after conflict, and foster a connection where both partners can finally feel seen and known.
Don't miss Wendell Moss and Dan Allender's recorded webinar: Learning to Read and Understand Men's Stories
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast. We are Brad and Kate.
Kate Aldrich:In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've survived both dark times and experienced restoration.
Brad Aldrich:Now, as a licensed marriage counselor and relationship coaches, we help couples to regain hope and joy.
Kate Aldrich:We invite you to journey with us as we are still becoming one.
Brad Aldrich:Let's start the conversation. Okay, welcome back to Still Becoming One, everyone. We are so excited to have you all here today. And we're really excited because today's guest is Wendell Moss, who is a therapist, a minister, a teacher, a speaker, and has been honestly shaping a lot of lives, including ours, through the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and part of the Allender Center. He's on the teaching team at the Allender Center, as you've heard us in the past, talking about narrative trauma care. Um, he's part of that teaching team, which we've just been honored to be a part of. Uh Wendell lives in Everett, Washington with his wife Veronica, of 17 years. And now 26. 26 years. Wow.
Kate Aldrich:That's a big difference from 70.
Brad Aldrich:You have to go update your bio.
Wendell Moss:We just did it. We just did it two weeks ago. We updated all of our they just had us do it literally two weeks ago. That's awesome. That's what all it has now is coming out.
Brad Aldrich:That's great. 26 years. Well, Wendell's heart is especially for men and creating spaces where real conversations can happen. And honestly, we wanted to invite him today because he and Dan Alender recently produced a webinar series uh titled Learning to Read and Understand Men's Stories, which I really valued. And I just thought it would be so beneficial to bring you on, Wendell. So thank you so much for being here.
Wendell Moss:It's good to be good to be here. And I'm excited, I'm excited to be here. Um, I think when it comes to men's stories, talking about them in the context of uh a marriage feels exciting. That's awesome.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah, well, we're glad. We're glad because I think it's it's something that can help couples. We try to help couples navigate that, you know, understanding each other's stories. But I do think there are some specific nuances that you and Dan really talked about specific to men. And it really got me thinking like, what are the ones specific to women? And and sometimes we definitely run into those, but I just think it was really good to listen to that conversation between the two. It was so helpful.
Brad Aldrich:Yeah. Well, I'm just gonna start you with a question that I run into all the time because I think as Kate and I have worked with couples, worked with people. Um I think Kate finds it pretty not not easy, but easier with women to go, hey, I think this is being shaped by your story. And I say things like that to men, and they go, Why do I need to talk about my story? So tell us why do men need to understand and talk about their story?
Wendell Moss:Well, I think what comes on my brand, I think uh two things. One, I I think when I think about men, there's just not often, first of all, the invitation to understand their story. I think when I think when I think culturally, I think about just kind of you you kind of in you to be kind of in survival mode, be strong. And uh when it comes to your story, it kind of it is what it is. Yes. Right. And and and so I I think when it comes to like marriage, there's often this when you when you when you say what when you ask what you ask, it's like huh? What do you mean what's my story? And and with so many men never having a context of to talk about their story. So your question is foreign, unfortunately. Yes. And and and and when I think about, you know, when I think about my you know, premarital counseling with my wife, um, I do not remember my my my premarital counselor saying, hey, do you know each other's story? What's your story? What's your story? Do you know hers? It was just one of those things where uh if you say the right things, then you're qualified to be married. Yes. Yeah, so just uh just highlighting like like that your question is foreign because there's so little context um where men are asked that kind of question that you're that you're inviting them to. That's amazing.
Brad Aldrich:Uh I think that's exactly right. I've seen that so often. And um, you know, one of the things, Wendell, that you shared in the the webinar, and I've done a lot of work with Jay Stringer and through story work around unwanted secular behavior. Um, and you went so far, which I thought was really powerful, of this idea as men that we're taught that we cannot show weakness and how that leads to addiction. I'd love you to yeah, say a little bit more about this because I think most guys that I work with have no idea where addictions, not just unwanted sexual behavior ones, but all of them come from.
Wendell Moss:Yeah, yeah. Well, when I think about addiction, you know, two things that I believe fuels addiction is shame. Yeah. And guilt. But but shame, being shame and contempt, well, I think are two primary categories. And so when I think about myself, one of the things that made me not talk about my addiction or even share my story was that I was so ashamed of it. Yes. Because if I tell you my story, if I tell you, or even if I I'm scared to dig into it, because I've been grinning and bearing it in order in the name of strength, and and really not even having the courage to dig into the hard parts of my story. Because if I do, then what's gonna happen? One, what will you do with me with me if I tell you? Right, but if I dig into it, like am I gonna spiral? Am I gonna, am I gonna like am I gonna will I ever stop, will I ever stop weaving? Will I ever stop grieving? So I can't do that. I I I gotta be strong. So I'm so I'm not gonna do it. And but I can't think of a better setup that would fuel addiction.
Brad Aldrich:Yeah.
Wendell Moss:Because uh uh addiction, I think addiction feeds on secrecy.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah.
Wendell Moss:Addiction, addiction, it's I think it thrives on our shame. Because uh, again, when it comes to addiction, it's a lot of it's about coping, right? And so our coping strategy to deal with shame is even though my house specifically was porn addiction, and so uh the cycle was I'm feeling shame, I'm feeling guilt. And so I begin my my cycle of pursuit, and then whatever, then during the deed, and for that however, that short amount of time, minute, two minutes, five minutes, it was comforting for a minute.
Kate Aldrich:Yes, sure.
Wendell Moss:It really was comforting for a minute. Then, of course, afterwards, my prefortocortex opens back up, and now my reasoning centers back, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I must have been crazy. Now I'm still now I'm playing stupid. Yeah, well, now let's just start all over again because now I need to cover that. So uh just all over again. So when I think about when I think about you know addiction, um and it just being so connected to to shame, it is so connected to fear, it's so connected to contempt. Yes. And so yeah, is that is that that makes sense?
Brad Aldrich:No, exactly. And and I think you went so far in the webinar to say really all men have an addiction because of some of this, that's it's either an addiction of escape or an addiction of mastery, and and really challenging this like idea that only a few people are wrestling with this addiction, but seeing it as a global thing, that this is something men wrestle with.
Wendell Moss:Yeah, I mean, it's I mean, I mean, it's not really been that long since there's been an understanding that women have addictions too, because addictions has often been just kind of talked about in the context of of men. So it really hasn't been that long to realize that addiction is so prevalent, and that previous addiction is not just about, if you will, pornography, but there's addiction to a lot of things. Sure. Yeah, and so and I so I think as that talk has increased, then I think people begin to take addiction more seriously now that it's not it's those people over there who struggle with drugs or those people who struggle with with sex. It's those people. But all of a sudden, my marriage is being destroyed because my spouse is addicted to work because they're scared, there's because they're scared of quiet. They're more scared of home than their job. Yeah, their job is their escape, their job, their work is their coping. Yeah, going home and dealing with a spouse or the children. Oh no.
Brad Aldrich:Well, and you just said because they're scared of quiet. I think that's that's so deep. Like there, I think there's so many men in general and of uh like that are scared of quiet and peace. Oh my goodness.
Kate Aldrich:And alone.
Brad Aldrich:And alone.
Kate Aldrich:Even if it's not physically alone, but the alone in your head.
Wendell Moss:Yeah, yeah. I I totally agree. I mean, even when I think about my own story, I mean, I there was just something that if I let it, if I let it get quiet, then at least for me, then things are gonna come up come up in me that are actually more truthful. Yeah. There are actually things that are coming up in me that that that are more true than how I than what I communicate or how I engage other people. They're they're more truthful than than all my masks that I put on. Um, and and I can't internally I can't thwart the lies.
Brad Aldrich:I think that's incredibly true. I think a lot of times, though, that thing that seeps up, it's not necessarily truthful, it's the shame speaking. It's a ton of that shame that comes up of going, I'm worthless, I'm useless, I'm that in that quiet moment.
Wendell Moss:Yeah, and I'd love you quit, and I thank you for like clearing it up because there's something about the truth being internally, I really don't like who I am. Yes. Versus my external appearance, I'm the most confident guy in the world. Yeah. You know, I've I've learned I've I've learned the social skills to give you what you want, to draw you, to allure you. But internally, um, where I where I can't escape is that I am scared to death.
Brad Aldrich:Yes. Yeah. It's huge. Uh it is huge. And I mean that leads right into one of the things that you talked about of this balance between how men want to both be seen and be invisible. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that.
Wendell Moss:Yeah, you know, I I think when I came to understand that myself, I remember coming to that realization and it felt really vulnerable. Almost like I wanted a fig leaf. Because it was it was really hard to admit that I wanted to be seen. That was one of the that was one of the parts of my story that I I I crushed Bam Bam for the little boy, because I as a kid, I wanted to be seen. Yeah. And well, there was a price that I was seen alright. I I was seen by somebody, people who harmed me the most, who harmed me. So, but nonetheless, that didn't stop me from wanting to be seen. So, so as I began to do my story work, you know, Brandon Kate, the whole idea of wanting to be seen, I had to really work through that. And it took me a long time to be honest about that. And and that's like to me, the growth was going from not just admitting that I wanted to be seen, but like I was created to want to be seen.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendell Moss:And so in in in walking through some of that, you know, then it felt like I was able to just kind of hold, at least handle that ambivalence. You talked about a lot, right? Like I want to be seen and I don't want to be seen. But it was like, okay, yeah, I do want to be. I had to be more truthful. Yeah. Sure. Right. Right. That I do want to be, I do want it, I do, I do want you to see me. And I'm scared as hell. What are you gonna do?
Brad Aldrich:If you do it, it comes with so much risk. Like I can, I can kind of, as you're talking about that, of course I want to be seen, but there's so much risk, and I can feel that piece in me of like remembering what it means to try and fly under the radar from the bullies or fly like to just I I don't, I'm you know, I don't want to be seen, I don't want to be picked out, I don't want anyone to actually notice. So I I like I can feel that place of of course I want to be seen, but even in a good way, even if a teacher, you know, somebody's like, Oh, you did so good at this, all of a sudden that can be used, right? It well said, and so then it's there's a risk of being seen that comes from this core desire, but then it's ugh, yeah.
Wendell Moss:Well, Brett and Bretton, you said it really well. Like many of us have experiences of when we were seen and was used against us. You said it, you said it perfectly. Which I think a lot for a lot of men, um, I think a lot of men we have a lot of us have stories, but generational stories. Like where where many of us, where many of us, we hear we hear stories of our fathers, we hear stories of our grandfathers. Yes. Where where when they became known, what happened. So, so in some ways, that warning, watch who you tell your business to. Yeah. Never, never, never let people, never, never let people see you sweat. I mean, I remember that phrase, right? Which is a big f which is a big phrase for never let them see you, never let them see you scared. Never let them never let them really know what's real. Because that puts a target on you, right?
Brad Aldrich:Then they'll use it against you, right? Yeah, so there is even this place that we were taught as young boys being vulnerable is risky because it's going to expose and and people will use it against you, yeah.
Wendell Moss:And and when I think about it, I I understand it. Like when I work with men, like I I don't shame men for hiding because they have a reason to that there's a reason for it. When I talk about men and women, I like to hide, like for many, this their stories hold that that was smart. Like that was that was hired to survive. So so it makes sense. And when it comes to being sustained, the price tag is high. Yes. Because now, um as I get older, now Brad, now Kate, now you have to keep that up, and we never get to know you.
Brad Aldrich:Yes, that's yes, yeah. And I think that's one of the things that has surprised me as I've worked with men, and I'm sure you've heard this too, is just how at the core so many of them are lonely. And they just are asking to be seen, but they have absolutely no idea how.
Wendell Moss:Yeah. Yeah, and I think and I think what feels really sad is that for many, I think men and women, and you get lovely your thoughts like unfortunately, lonely is actually for many people, lonely is the safest. True. Like that, like, I mean, because there's a reason because we can feel the pain of loneliness, but there's a reason that we are gonna choose lonely, and all of it feels but will still be there. That at least that is that tells me that externally feels much more terrifying.
Brad Aldrich:Yeah.
Wendell Moss:So I'll take I'll take the loneliness. Yes.
Kate Aldrich:I'm used to it. There's also an aspect of yeah, of um, it's it feels comfortable. It feels like something you've done, like that pattern you've done before. And so I think, yeah, for sure. I was just thinking here, I was thinking too, you know, I think a lot of people with that seen not seen, which I think every one of us has that push pull. There's also, I know that I've heard a lot of themes in this, maybe more women than men. So I'm curious for you guys of like, well, if I am seen even in a positive, especially in a positive, I don't know what to do with that. Oh, right. And that brings its own uncomfortable feelings and emotions in your body of like, okay, I'm actually being seen in a positive, but I don't know how to receive it. I don't even know what to do with it. I'm not sure I like it.
Brad Aldrich:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendell Moss:Brad, Brent, I don't I don't know about you.
Brad Aldrich:I mean, but I'm sitting here thinking there's probably one place that men rehearse being seen that way. And that would be like, you know, I get to make the winning free throw, or I'm gonna catch the winning pass. Like there, there's the kid fantasy of like out there and going, yes, everyone sees me hit the home run. Like, I think that being seen that's so big that everyone gets it, I think we rehearse that.
Kate Aldrich:But when it's but that has a level of anonymity to it, though. That's true. Actually, like on I mean, on the level of like a lot of people are seeing me do something, it's not vulnerable in any way other than using my muscles.
Wendell Moss:Oh your muscles, yeah. I I think as I hear you, there's something like I'll limit it. That's almost what I hear. Like you said, I'll limit it. Like I will receive it to a I will receive it toward a certain extent. Like if it's about my muscles or it's about my seat, then great. Because I I know as a football player, like it was easy to accept that I was a good football player. That's that was great, but there was something about when if someone says something much closer to my about my character, yes, or something that felt that's what like you know what you you're not just a good boss player, you're a really like you're a real especially during my addictive time addiction, you're a really good man. Yeah. Internally, my the the fire in me would would just scream, you don't know me, you don't know me, you don't know me, you don't know me. Yeah, it wouldn't be easier. You're a good football player, thank you.
Brad Aldrich:Thank you, yeah. I can do that, right? And and I bring in like I kind of think through some of what Brennan Manning always talks about of like the inner imposter that's always shouting, if they only knew, yeah, then they would reject me. That's that piece. Yeah, I think there's that's the problem with vulnerability, is it's only so much. So they can celebrate this thing I did at work, they can celebrate this thing, but if it starts getting personal, all it all it feels like is shame.
Wendell Moss:Yeah, or or even the or even a tone, like it it's it's easier or even who it is, because if if you're a stranger, I actually I actually, you know what? If I don't know you, you can say that. It's kind of but if you know me really, really well, like it's if it's on a marriage, when my wife says something to me, and and to get praise, that is a lot more difficult to dismiss. Yes. Someone who's closely knows it, it's harder to dismiss them. So I it's like uh because my wife, I remember many times she used to have to say to me, Mendelle, do you know how to just say thank you? Because she I would I you know I'll be I you know I was one of those, especially in Christian circle, I used to worship a leader, and I went, You're a really good worship leader. I go, Oh, well, well, praise God. You know, we can put the spiritual on it, like it's just him, it's just him, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but that would be kind of a version of it, like to do that. But then say thank you, but I think internally to say thank you would be to really take them in, believe them, and mess with the imposter that you just spoke so well of, yeah, but when you when you rattle that cage, it's like, oh God.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah. Well, and Brad, you you said something I thought was really interesting. You said, um, you know, when you res when something is given to you, a comment like that, a good, it just, how did you say it? You said it just brings shame or or the shame just comes. And I thought, I I wonder for a lot of people, it's that comment that Wendell just said of like, but if you really knew me, right? Because like there's that instant, oh, they're saying something nice, but I know this is still a big thing for me, or I know this is still a big deal. So they can't like they cancel each other out. I can't receive that because of this. And you said, Wendell, you know, when you you were still on that journey with pornography, like if somebody gives you something good, you're like, but I have all of this inside of me.
Wendell Moss:Right.
Kate Aldrich:So that doesn't really, it can't count.
Wendell Moss:Yeah. And I also have and I and I also have you know narratives where again, I'm not I'm I'm not supposed to be college material. I mean, I have I have phrases that are also that are still speaking as well, yep, that that battle with what you're telling me. So I'm so just aware that we've been, you know, little remarks that that that have stuck that have stuck with us that make that compliment that you're bringing it it smacks right up against it.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah, yeah. So interesting.
Brad Aldrich:I loved in the webinar, you guys broke down that there's really three core questions that every guy is asking does anyone see me, which we're talking about, does anyone respect me and will anyone want me?
Wendell Moss:Oh my gosh.
Brad Aldrich:And uh like I just see each of those, and even trying to think of that in a marriage perspective, I think every guy is asking their wife those questions too, probably on a daily basis, right? Like in one way or another, and I think often men have no idea how to answer those.
Wendell Moss:Yeah. And I think you said it so well, because I think I know for me, the shame that was in me even made it difficult to receive respect when my wife offered it. Yes. Because even because even to respect me actually made it more difficult. Yeah, it was like she, I mean, she is literally trying to respect me. So we didn't earn it. Um thank you. And I'm going again back to what you said. If you oh, she doesn't know, she doesn't know. Oh my gosh, if she oh, there's just no way. And not only about addiction, but if she even knew about my past, right, right, like my be like, like, so so the respect is um and so in some ways to receive respect in that way that's really heartfelt. It's actually easier to go out and demand respect. Correct, that looks that actually presents strong, like you will respect me.
Brad Aldrich:Yeah, and we say that happen all the time, right? Yeah, yeah. That's the roots of a lot of violence, a lot of aggression, a lot of control, is trying to get the respect that they almost don't feel like they deserve. Right, but they demand.
Wendell Moss:And so those last two categories that you talked about, uh I I want respect, and I forgot what the third one was. I and I want I want to be want I want to be wanted.
Brad Aldrich:Right, yeah, desirable.
Wendell Moss:I mean, I mean, because talk about respect in that way isn't much more vulnerable, let alone to say I want to be wanted, my goodness.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah, yeah.
Wendell Moss:Because talking about respect in the context of wanting to be wanted, uh you just talking about that feels so vulnerable. Yeah. Because I don't want you to know I want anything. Like to say I want something, or let alone need something. Yeah. Not now I'm needy. Okay, now we're back to now I'm weak and now I'm strong. So those three are tough, tough categories, I think, for men. Yeah. Wow. Because they're really, really vulnerable to say uh I mean, like, do you want me? Yeah. Like, oh my, like, like to say like that, is that not just kind of even instantly kind of go, whoa.
Brad Aldrich:Well, and I've said this on our podcast before, like early in our marriage, before when I was dealing with my own pornography issue, and when I was was not knowing myself very well, when I would pursue Kate physically, I would usually kind of do locker room methods because if she denied those, I could just be like, well, it's because it, you know, had nothing to do with me. It it's just she's not, you know, didn't like that kind of thing. So it it's not vulnerable in pursuing her, so that then when the rejection came back, it wasn't hitting I don't want you, it was hitting something else.
Wendell Moss:Yeah, yeah. It's not we're gonna keep we're gonna keep away from the bullseye.
Kate Aldrich:Yes, but doesn't it ultimately hit the bullseye anyway? Of course. I'm just like, wait a sec, but doesn't it even Yeah, but but you know what?
Wendell Moss:I won't let you know that.
Kate Aldrich:Right. Oh, totally.
Wendell Moss:I think that's the point. So I think you're right. We're we're we're on the bullseye, but heck, if I'm gonna let you touch it. Right, right. Um, because if you touch it and I'll let you know you touch it, now you've kind of got me.
Kate Aldrich:Right. Right.
Wendell Moss:Well, and you're you're you're dead, right?
Kate Aldrich:And you're in a powerless situation, which is many times what has started that storyline. And yeah, and I think, yeah, I think that's really good. And I think I hope I hope some wives are listening to this too, because I think it's so vital. And and I would love for us to do one on the flip side too, but I think understanding the specific nuances, especially if you're growing up in the United States and you're a male, right? Because and other cultures are gonna have some other challenges, flavors, different things to um go with story. But I believe in the United States, these are very core. Yeah.
Brad Aldrich:They're very core.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah. Um, and I think you guys being able to break them down makes, I mean, there is still the nuance of every husband's story, every man's story, but but it makes it a little bit more tangible instead of like, I know there's story there. And and usually we get spouses at that point. I know that there's stories, I've heard their stories in an intellectual way, right? Or as a funny joke over Thanksgiving dinner, or right, I know the stories, but I I don't really understand the impact, which impact isn't even enough of a word, but like what has that the gravity of what that story means. Right. What has that burrowed in? And what are the tentacles that are hanging on and all the different um imagery? So I just I'm so thankful for that list because I think that's gonna help a lot. Wives. Oh, okay. And what then for your spouse are the stories that have led those things to not feel safe, not feel um the the vulnerable, not feel like I can actually be vulnerable. I have to do something different to ask. I can't, you know, that kind of thing. So I'm curious. Yeah.
Brad Aldrich:Every one of us, I mean, I just you say this in the webinar and go into it a little bit, but every man, and honestly, probably every human, but every man has had times where the answer to those three questions is no.
Wendell Moss:Right.
Brad Aldrich:Yeah. So it doesn't matter what good comes. Right. Because we go back to the well, well, that that person said no. And that's that thing said no.
Kate Aldrich:When I work with women, I say that, like, here's the problem with our themes or our threads or whatever term you want to use. They have happened at times, right? So, like, unfortunately, it's not like we can say that never happened. That was never true. Like, my my biggest one from my story is that I'm too much for people. Who hasn't been too much for somebody in their life? Like, not to mention I was a toddler at some point, right? So, like, you know, so it's going to have unfortunately some truth to it. And then people can latch on to that, but it has happened. I have been too much for people. And that's just heartbreaking. Because yeah.
Wendell Moss:You know, Kate, if I can go back to just two con I you brought up a concept I wanna that I don't want to miss. And I think it's two concepts, especially, and I but I think it's I think it's both men and women, but definitely when it comes in stories, that those concepts are powerlessness and helplessness. Because even with those three even with those three questions, I think one of the core, core, core issues with men is the fear of feeling either powerless or helpless. Yeah. Um, I I think that I think that is I think that is huge. And to want to be wanted, to to want to be seen, to want to be respected, to even admit all of those things. Yeah. There's a there's a sense of like, I don't want you to tell me those things because of a vulnerability. That again, just to be put in a position of, okay, what are you gonna do with me? What are you gonna do with my desire? Mm-hmm. And and in some ways, like I don't have I don't I don't have the power, I can't control how you're gonna respond. So that's an element of powerlessness. Yeah. So I I I didn't want to sweep by because you when you said powerlessness, okay, it felt like that's like I think core two core categories of powerlessness and helplessness that men definitely want to avoid.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah, yeah.
Brad Aldrich:So I I agree. Two questions that I think come out of this is okay, if as men we can start to recognize that, hey, are there these core questions that everyone is asking? What do we as men do about it? And then the side question is what do our spouses do about it? What do our wives who love us and care about us do about the fact that we're their husbands are carrying around these pretty hefty wounds?
Wendell Moss:Yeah, yeah. Well, when I think about, I mean, just what I think the the two of you. Um one, I think, I think we have to be intentional about putting ourselves in context where we're we're invited to our story. Yeah, we're invited to engage it. Yeah. Whether it be the council, whether it be some accounting center or whatever, I think there's some there's some some point where we have to be intentional and engage where we have come from and what's been in us. So I I think that's I think that's one. Two, I think having to hold the humility that we won't be able to do it all. We won't be able to be able to do it by ourselves. Yeah. So that's a that's just a biggie. That healing is not gonna come in isolation. Which means we're gonna have to have people, we're gonna have to have people be with us. Even if our story holds that trusting is crazy, no way. There's no getting out of there by net at some point, like you like you will not be able to do it alone. Yeah, and I think I think for me to, when I recognize that, it didn't make it easy.
Kate Aldrich:Sure.
Wendell Moss:But I did have to reckon with I was gonna have to take some risks.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah.
Wendell Moss:And and I and I and I and I say that, and I I say that with honor. I say that with like that's not easy. So so know that I don't I say that flippantly. But nonetheless, it's really, really true. Because counter-narratives have to form. We have to have we have to have new experiences. Yeah. Where where did he want two people? You know what? I remember the first time I told my story, and a person said thank you after hearing all I said, you all have probably heard that story. Where's the guy said thank you? Internally, I flipped. Yeah. Because I was like, Did he just say that? Yeah, I repeated it. So I think we have to have those kind of experiences. Yes. So one, that means I I I intentionally step in and engage my story. Two, I had to have somebody step in there with me. And I think third, I think having to have um, and it's kind of attached to number two, like I think we have to, I think we have to have a communities to help us do that. I think we have to have communities to help us to do to do that. And and I and I think four, it has to, oh my gosh, it has to be a gracious process.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah.
Wendell Moss:That's really good.
Brad Aldrich:I agree.
Wendell Moss:Like that that you're gonna look, you're gonna have days where you're like, I am an idiot, I'm going back.
Brad Aldrich:Yes.
Wendell Moss:I'm going back, forget this. That was the dumbest move ever. But then you have a community to go, I'm not gonna pull you out, but I'm gonna go, hey, can you step your tongue back in? Yeah, right. Not gonna force you, but we're here, and you have to grapple with that we're waiting, we're waiting for you. Yeah, yeah, you come back as you wish, but we're tapping on the door a little bit.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah, I love that. Well, and that kind invitation, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's huge.
Brad Aldrich:I think one of the things you said, and I know I can feel this tangibly with with Kate, and it you know, I think spouses need to hear that line of counter-narratives need to exist. Right? That your husband has felt like nobody wants to see him, your husband has felt like nobody respects him, your husband has felt like nobody wants him. Yeah, if yeah, if you can be a part of the counter-narratives of the positive, that is tremendous steps forward.
Wendell Moss:Yeah, and I think even I think in I think even an argument between spouse and this time, you know what? There was a lessening of being dismissed by the other. Yes. That's that's that's and to even notice that. Right. But you know what, but maybe, but maybe you all had a better conversation of how your your wife or how your husband missed you and they handled it just a little bit better.
Kate Aldrich:Exactly.
Wendell Moss:Because I remember when my wife said to me, I mean, literally when she first engaged, when we first began to digimon addiction, one thing she said to me, she goes, she goes, Wendell, honestly. If you weren't able to just admit and be honest, and and and you just wanted to come at me and blame me, she let me go. And when I and when I heard that, I heard I and I'll talk later. It was like I didn't need to do it perfectly. But there was something for me when I heard her say that, I heard her say also I didn't have to do it perfectly.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah, yeah.
Wendell Moss:And I but I think that was a kind of a beginning of us being able to realize that we are gonna do this per uh perfectly. And if you've been around the Alaners Center enough, you've heard you know, we those concepts of rupture and repair, you heard a lot of those, yeah. But to make that live, there's something like, you know, I I I I was able to not be so consumed by my shame. I became less did it all go away immediately, of course not. But the fact that I was able to be a little less consent um consumed by my shame, and my wife noticed it. And it helped me to not blame her or whatever, but that was growth, yeah. Yeah, there's just little steps, so so those counter-narratives, yeah, I think are huge. They don't have to be huge, yeah. Yeah, but the amygdala records it all.
Kate Aldrich:Right, right.
Brad Aldrich:Gosh, there's so much hope there, and I love I love that is I do too. It's it's it isn't perfect, you don't have to be perfect, it's not about getting it right all the time, but it's little steps that provide some hope.
Wendell Moss:And you're gonna regress, and even if even if you fought a little bit better this time, yeah. I love that. Yeah, like we we get to go and repair, like I yeah. I was less defensive this time.
Kate Aldrich:Right. Right. Absolutely.
Brad Aldrich:I think that's and and I think that's something we can get a get our heads around because I do think it feels like this daunting task sometimes of wait, I have to change everything that I've thought about, everything that I've done, you know. Oh, I have to stop that negative self-talk immediately, and it it doesn't go away like that.
Wendell Moss:Well, I think I think as I I want I I would love to get people the freedom to hear, the brain doesn't even work that way, right? It's not what that is not what the brain does, right? Exactly the amygdala, the amygdala is not going to just quit, and your limbic system has meaning recordings, and those recordings aren't just going to go away.
Kate Aldrich:Yes, and it takes time to change them, yes, ma'am. But it does, and it the same, and I encourage people hey, that pathway didn't get um that deep crevice in two minutes, and it's going to take time and kindness and all of that to be able to switch into something different, to choose something different, but also to to create that new pathway so that it feels a little bit more solid, a little bit more sound, like when we're doing something, I feel a little bit more confident in that. Um, and I think I think you're right, couples hearing the kindness and can we engage in a way where we're doing it a little bit better each time, and hopefully, and I realize that's kind of generic, but like that's huge. It is it is huge, yeah.
Wendell Moss:And even as because even at the risk of sounding too simplistic, well, honestly, on some level, it's really true. Yeah, I think it's easy, not saying that, but it is as simple as we get to try and try and try, and we get to grow, and our capacity to do so. We get to regress, yeah, repent, yeah, and then continue. That's amazing.
Kate Aldrich:I love that it's simple, but it's not easy.
Brad Aldrich:Yeah, that's yeah, I think that's perfect. And I think that is a huge step. Um I would really encourage, I learned a lot from from listening to you and Dan Allen talk about this. I would really encourage couples to go and check it out. I will put um a link to the Allender Center um where they can find the recording of the webinar um in the show notes. Wendell, this has been an amazing conversation. Where can our listeners find you?
Wendell Moss:Um well, um definitely um you can find me um probably mostly at the Alender Center. Excellent. Where are you gonna find me most on the most on the Alan Center website when we have a few blogs? And it's even interesting, is uh as you're asking, I'm going, oh, he's making me market myself. I'm right.
Kate Aldrich:Making you be seen.
Brad Aldrich:You got a lot of smart things to say.
Kate Aldrich:You do. Yes. Living it out.
Brad Aldrich:Kate and I have so valued hearing your teaching through the under center when we've been there. It's I think you've got a lot of wisdom and a lot of really great things to say. So we certainly have appreciated it.
Kate Aldrich:Yeah.
Wendell Moss:Thank you, thank you, thank you. It's been a pleasure, it's been a pleasure for me.
Kate Aldrich:Thank you for it. That's good, because it's good stuff. Thank you.
Wendell Moss:Sure is. Oh you, you won't, you won't, you won't.
Brad Aldrich:Still Becoming One is a production of Aldrich Ministries. For more information about Brad and Kate's coaching ministry, courses, and speaking opportunities, you can find us at Aldrich Ministries.com. For podcast show notes and links to resources in all of our social media, be sure to visit us at stillbecoming one dot com. And don't forget to like this episode wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to follow us to continue your journey on Still Becoming One.